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Hey Guest! Ever feel like entering a Game Jam, but the time limit is always too much pressure? We get it... You lead a hectic life and dedicating 3 whole days to make a game just doesn't work for you! So, why not enter the GMC SLOW JAM? Take your time! Kick back and make your game over 4 months! Interested? Then just click here!
Discussion My life has changed and I need some advice.
- Thread starter jb skaggs
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Neptune
Member
I started trading cryptocurrency last october, and for the first time in my life, I don't have any financial worries. Its a **** show, and if you believe everything you read and watch, you will lose your money. And anyone you talk to about it, will have a strong uneducated opinion on how it works, and they'll exclaim "Its a bubble! You'll be bankrupt!"
Make back your initial investment, and then trade profits... Oh and don't panic when BTC fluctuates 1000s of dollars on the daily.
Anyhow, these are the US exchanges that I frequent:
https://bittrex.com/
https://www.binance.com/
https://www.coinbase.com/dashboard
This is a new exchange, but I think has potential to see a lot of traffic.
https://cobinhood.com/home
This is also a very useful resource:
https://coinmarketcap.com/
And go to this twitter, I recommend following her (my sister), and more importantly seeing who she follows:
https://twitter.com/sally_anna_
Make back your initial investment, and then trade profits... Oh and don't panic when BTC fluctuates 1000s of dollars on the daily.
Anyhow, these are the US exchanges that I frequent:
https://bittrex.com/
https://www.binance.com/
https://www.coinbase.com/dashboard
This is a new exchange, but I think has potential to see a lot of traffic.
https://cobinhood.com/home
This is also a very useful resource:
https://coinmarketcap.com/
And go to this twitter, I recommend following her (my sister), and more importantly seeing who she follows:
https://twitter.com/sally_anna_
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jb skaggs
Guest
Ninety that is an awesome post. Vether I am absolutely ignorant on cryptocurrecy.
andev
Member
It's a matter of timing. It's gonna keep rising and rising exponentially but at some point there's gonna be a big collapse and all these people that have put their mortgage money in it and whatever else are going to get really badly hurt. It won't just be bitcoin either, when bitcoin falls, they all will (from the mainstream investors at least).
Neptune
Member
The people who don't trade purely profits, and happen to enter right before this big collapse (that will maybe (probably) happen) will get hurt. Others will just cry about lost profits.
Same goes for any stock investment -- no risk = no reward. If people sell their belongings and dive into some investment, then that is their own choice... and its certainly not the system's fault when they lose.
As far as bitcoin goes, I don't want to start talking about all the different coins and technologies, but I don't think BTC will be "king" forever.
Same goes for any stock investment -- no risk = no reward. If people sell their belongings and dive into some investment, then that is their own choice... and its certainly not the system's fault when they lose.
As far as bitcoin goes, I don't want to start talking about all the different coins and technologies, but I don't think BTC will be "king" forever.
Gamebot
Member
Go on disability give it all you have!
I know you said you don't have a ton of money but some electric companies have programs where they will replace all of your light bulbs to LED bulbs. I know these types of bulbs are expensive to buy but I only pay aprox. $50 a month on electricity, with family. Used to be $100+. Some electric companies as with gas companies will allow you to pay a monthly locked in rate. This should help keep costs down as well as keeping bills in order.
$100 for internet??? Is this satellite internet? My internet only costs me $60 a month using everyone else's modems. (But there is no limits as I use 100's of GB day after day. Then again it's not that hard these days)
I know you said you don't have a ton of money but some electric companies have programs where they will replace all of your light bulbs to LED bulbs. I know these types of bulbs are expensive to buy but I only pay aprox. $50 a month on electricity, with family. Used to be $100+. Some electric companies as with gas companies will allow you to pay a monthly locked in rate. This should help keep costs down as well as keeping bills in order.
$100 for internet??? Is this satellite internet? My internet only costs me $60 a month using everyone else's modems. (But there is no limits as I use 100's of GB day after day. Then again it's not that hard these days)
J
jb skaggs
Guest
I live in a rural service. I think they have utilities so high to keep undesirables out (I guess that means me too 
)
)
Dog Slobber
Member
The original poster has been advised to turn off his heat in the middle of a well below freezing winter, stop eating and invest his remaining few dollars in cryptocurrency.
I think we can pretty much consider all his problems solved.
Good job everyone!
I think we can pretty much consider all his problems solved.
Good job everyone!
SilverSurfer1221
Member
"Hey, Guys! I need advice on how to fix my car. The engine dies the other day. Can any of you help?"
"Why, yes, we can! You need to go on a diet to lose weight, that way your car will run better (and get better gas mileage). You should also probably wash your hands, too. I don't know how that's going to help, but it's always a good thing to do! Oh! And invest in Cryptocurrency! It won't help you out of your immediate need - you know, the need that you are actually seeking help with - but it will help you buy another car down the road ... maybe! No need to thank us! Glad we could help!!!"
"Why, yes, we can! You need to go on a diet to lose weight, that way your car will run better (and get better gas mileage). You should also probably wash your hands, too. I don't know how that's going to help, but it's always a good thing to do! Oh! And invest in Cryptocurrency! It won't help you out of your immediate need - you know, the need that you are actually seeking help with - but it will help you buy another car down the road ... maybe! No need to thank us! Glad we could help!!!"
S
signal
Guest
I can't speak for cryptocurrency or turning off the heat, but if you haven't tried fasting yourself, you shouldn't be so quick to criticize it. You say "stop eating" as if you have to give up food forever. No, it's temporary. It's a tool in your toolbag that you use from time to time.
@SilverSurfer1221 Way to take legitimate advice on fasting and criticize it. If you read my post, you would understand I suggested fasting to improve his health, not lose weight. He doesn't have a weight problem (that I know of). He has a potentially crippling health problem.
SilverSurfer1221
Member
Way to assume I was even talking about you at all. Sheesh. I was not, btw. But you missed the point. The OP was asked the following:
"SO my question is this: is indiepacalypse a real thing? Can small 1 member companies make money? Or at my stage in life have I missed the boat?"
He did not ask how to improve his health. He certainly did not ask about fasting. He asked a very specific thing and people here are focusing on health and finances. My point was to illustrate how ridiculous most of this discussion has been by posing a question about a car not working and then responding to my own questions that HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CAR! Just as fasting has nothing to do with the OPs question about making money creating games.
S
signal
Guest
I had a long talk with a moderator last night. Making assumptions about other members is perfectly cool. Just don't confront the person making assumptions via PM.. that's a no-no.
Can you point me to the part where he asked for jokes about what everyone else is posting?
My question about fasting was directly related to content in his original post (his health issues). You're just not seeing the connection between fasting and health.I get the sense that people here are extremely sensitive to fasting, so I'm just gonna drop it. Your loss.
Gobble gobble. Must consume!
J
jb skaggs
Guest
Signal it's ok. I do fast- I don't talk about it much. You are correct it does and it can promote strong healing. And I understand why you would suggest it.
RichHopefulComposer
Member
I'm going to try fasting now.
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signal
Guest
@jb skaggs Thank you! I felt like I was getting crucified here just for trying to help. That's the last I'll post on the issue though, because there's some good info, particularly by @Ninety getting hidden away.
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Lonewolff
Guest
Fasting - The new alternative to hip and knee joint replacements.
Back to the original question though. I personally believe that creating games is no way to try and make a quick buck. Most games financially fail and it takes a lot of work to achieve that financial failure.
Look at Rock God Tycoon - by all accounts a success. From my understanding it took two years or so to develop and made $70K or something in the first year or so. Sounds great on paper.
$70K / 2 (team of two) = $35K
That is $28K after tax.
Divide that by three years. Two years dev, one year in the wild.
$9K per year.
Benefits of $1200 a month ($14400 a year) don't look so bad now, do they?
And then you have to ask yourself, do you have what it takes to replicate the 'success' of Rock God Tycoon?
There are better ways to earn an immediate income.
Back to the original question though. I personally believe that creating games is no way to try and make a quick buck. Most games financially fail and it takes a lot of work to achieve that financial failure.
Look at Rock God Tycoon - by all accounts a success. From my understanding it took two years or so to develop and made $70K or something in the first year or so. Sounds great on paper.
$70K / 2 (team of two) = $35K
That is $28K after tax.
Divide that by three years. Two years dev, one year in the wild.
$9K per year.
Benefits of $1200 a month ($14400 a year) don't look so bad now, do they?
And then you have to ask yourself, do you have what it takes to replicate the 'success' of Rock God Tycoon?
There are better ways to earn an immediate income.
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andev
Member
But if he'd worked solo, that would be 18k per year, which is $1500 a month.
(I realise it would be double the workload, but it really depends how large the game is I guess)
RichHopefulComposer
Member
@Ghost in the IDE: I think your math is a little off there. If the game took two years to develop, we should be dividing its profits by just those two years to be fair - if you do a piece of freelance art that takes you an hour and pays $100, your work is making you $100/hr, whether the person contracting you pays up front or a week later.
This makes sense, because you can move onto the next piece of art or game as soon as the first one is finished - as long as @Seabass (The Human) keeps up a two year cycle making the same amount of money RGT did, he might be making enough to scrape by, if your estimations are correct. I still wouldn't try to support a family of five like that, but it's not quite *as* bad as your math suggests.
That's *if* we assume he's in a 50-50 partnership with his artist, too - who knows, Seabass might've ended up with 75% of that money!
Your point does still stand, though. Even among the majority of developers living off of their work, I'd imagine it'd be easier for them to make money elsewhere. This really is a field to get into when you're young and not supporting a family yet. I think anyone who can't afford to take these sorts of risks have a lot of other options they should look at before betting everything on game dev...
This makes sense, because you can move onto the next piece of art or game as soon as the first one is finished - as long as @Seabass (The Human) keeps up a two year cycle making the same amount of money RGT did, he might be making enough to scrape by, if your estimations are correct. I still wouldn't try to support a family of five like that, but it's not quite *as* bad as your math suggests.
That's *if* we assume he's in a 50-50 partnership with his artist, too - who knows, Seabass might've ended up with 75% of that money!
Your point does still stand, though. Even among the majority of developers living off of their work, I'd imagine it'd be easier for them to make money elsewhere. This really is a field to get into when you're young and not supporting a family yet. I think anyone who can't afford to take these sorts of risks have a lot of other options they should look at before betting everything on game dev...
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Lonewolff
Guest
@RichHopelessComposer Very true. Those figures are speculative and should be treated as an example.
There was much that I didn't add also.
Even if the main dev pocketed 75% and this was his sole source of income, he is running well below the poverty line.
There was much that I didn't add also.
- Steam costs
- Marketing
- Software (GMS, Spine?, Adobe CC subscriptions?)
- Support
- Electricity
- PC hardware
- Rent
- Living expenses
- etc...
Even if the main dev pocketed 75% and this was his sole source of income, he is running well below the poverty line.
RichHopefulComposer
Member
I'm not sure whether or not Seabass paid for marketing for RGT...if he did, that goes under the budget for sure. Steam's cut is also significant.
I wouldn't count cost of living as part of the game's budget, the way we're looking at it, since I think that's implied for a developer - his pay *is* his living budget. Saying "this example dev has to live on 10k a year by my estimates," and then following up with "and you have to budget in his rent!" is double dipping in this context, think, since we're already discussing whether or not game dev produces a livable wage for the average dev, heheh.
You are right, though. Game dev is very rough for the the majority of devs out there.
I wouldn't count cost of living as part of the game's budget, the way we're looking at it, since I think that's implied for a developer - his pay *is* his living budget. Saying "this example dev has to live on 10k a year by my estimates," and then following up with "and you have to budget in his rent!" is double dipping in this context, think, since we're already discussing whether or not game dev produces a livable wage for the average dev, heheh.
You are right, though. Game dev is very rough for the the majority of devs out there.
Rayek
Member
I second Ninety's post. Relying on game development to make a basic income is incredibly risky, and a bit of a crap-shoot. Instead, teach yourself web and mobile development, and you'll be able to work from home, as a freelancer, and get paid for making websites and small mobile apps for clients. Learn WordPress theme development, and build web presences for businesses and people.
Far more potential for a pretty good basic income compared to game development. And it gets you out of the door as well, talking to clients.
And developing games on the side is always a possibility once you've secured yourself a basic income with freelance jobs.
Far more potential for a pretty good basic income compared to game development. And it gets you out of the door as well, talking to clients.
And developing games on the side is always a possibility once you've secured yourself a basic income with freelance jobs.
Ninety
Member
To be fair, and to play devil's advocate, those things (web/mobile dev) aren't necessarily a walk in the park either. I think they're a safer bet than game development but they're certainly not the most secure career options out there, especially given how they've become highly saturated commodities in the last five to ten years.
I think your last point is really solid, though - those are both good options to network with potential clients. I think whatever route jb skaggs goes down he's going to have to really leverage that sort of thing to his advantage.
I think your last point is really solid, though - those are both good options to network with potential clients. I think whatever route jb skaggs goes down he's going to have to really leverage that sort of thing to his advantage.
R
roytheshort
Guest
Ok I try to avoid posting most of the time nowadays but this is abject garbage.
Firstly, Bitcoin is supposed to act like a currency, not a stock or a commodity. Currencies are meant to be readily accepted and not very volatile, Bitcoin fits neither of these. Second, currencies are supposed to have minimum overhead costs. Bitcoin has a ton, the electricity costs to run Bitcoin far outstrip any value it has as a currency. The cost to print fiat money is much much less than the value you get from its liquidity. Oh, liquidity, lets get onto that. Can I go to a store and use Bitcoins to buy things? Generally no, can't pay rent with Bitcoin, can't buy groceries with Bitcoin, and this is just skirting around the problems of actually transferring Bitcoins out of exchanges.
Stocks generate value in a VERY different way, when you buy a stock, you own a small percentage of a company. This company will make profits by selling goods and services and paying a series of direct and fixed costs. They then repay the owners through a dividend and the owners also have access to a set of financial statements, along with other reports detailing expected performance of the company. There are various other factors, like investing activities such as buying new machinery, reputation and market feeling which can impact a company regardless of its actual performance. But overall, you can actually see where the value has come from.
Can you show me where on Bitcoin, comparing its value as a "currency" to its overhead costs it has a surplus? Ok, let's assume its a commodity and not a currency, where's the end use? Something like coffee or oil usually has an end... nope nothing here. If the end game is to become a currency, it should stop acting like a commodity.
Also starving yourself and not paying for heating is a bad idea too.
Neptune
Member
@roytheshort You can "straw man" all day about how crypto currencies arent stocks and don't have end uses (one example: How do you trade money internationally? Do you get on a private jet with a briefcase? No you can almost instantaneously trade via cryptos).
But this isnt even the point of my post, to glamorize cryptos... I was a broke college student last october. I invested roughly 3000$ (of loan money) into various cryptos. After a few failings and successes, I'm now messing around with 28,000$...
The OP wanted money from home, I offered a solution.
But this isnt even the point of my post, to glamorize cryptos... I was a broke college student last october. I invested roughly 3000$ (of loan money) into various cryptos. After a few failings and successes, I'm now messing around with 28,000$...
The OP wanted money from home, I offered a solution.
andev
Member
You can't directly pay the store with bitcoin, but you can withdraw some before you leave?
Neptune
Member
I guess there are quite a few companies starting to accept BTC... I didn't know there were so many, but there it is.
https://99bitcoins.com/who-accepts-bitcoins-payment-companies-stores-take-bitcoins/
https://99bitcoins.com/who-accepts-bitcoins-payment-companies-stores-take-bitcoins/
Ninety
Member
Quite frankly even if investing $3000 in crypto as a broke college student turned out well you surely must understand how volatile and risky it is. Advising someone with tight finances, limited options for work and a family to support to follow in your footsteps is insane. As an element of a broader investment portfolio I can understand it but you're talking about this like it's the lottery. Don't you understand that portraying what's supposed to be a viable currency as a get-rich-quick scheme is the exact reason so many Bitcoin advocates aren't taken seriously?
sitebender
Member
I enjoyed my $23 from 2 months of making art 10 hours a week for 50% of rev share.
If you do rev share make sure the other person is A) trustworthy to pay you in say a year B) able to finish a project C) able to promote the game so it makes money.
andev
Member
If you've got someone that can do this, you literally by definition don't need anything else
M
MishMash
Guest
Haven't read the full topic, seemed to diverge into talk of fasting and Crypto currency, but regarding game development as a career working from home, I can give my take. So currently i've been working as a full-time indie dev for the last 6 months in an effort to finish my project and get it released. By the time the project is out, it'll have been in development for 5 and a half years (with two of us working), most of which was very part-time, and could have been reduced if I had all of the knowledge I have now when the project was started. Being optimistic, a project of this caliber could be completed in 2 years by two people if you were exceptionally good at planning and equally skilled as a programmer with years of experience under your belt. Realistically, for an individual, the project would likely take 3 to 10 years, depending on scale and commitment.
This is naturally a really daunting amount of time when quantified in that way. I don't believe in the indiepocalypse as such, I know statistically, there are far more games, and not a proportional increase in the number of consumers, however I believe this just means you have to be better in order to succeed. Perhaps i'm being naive, though I believe games themselves can be successful still, and it can be a viable path, but only if you approach it in the right way. The hard part now is being sustainable about it, as there is no guarantee of reward, and games can require a large upfront investment. For me, most of that investment was mitigated by time commitment (equivalent of 5 human years of work) plus some financial commitment.
"Or .. have i missed the boat?" I don't think the situation has changed all that much since 2010 with regards to what sort of commitment/personal investment it took to develop a project. In fact, its objectively easier than it was a few years ago given greater resources, stronger sales platforms and a much larger pool of consumers who play indie games. The difference is that there are more people doing it, but if you see the amount of trash that comes out, if you have a good game, you would hope it wouldn't impact your sales, the challenge is just getting people to see your game, as people aren't really buying the trash that much anyway, it's just it obscures your games visibility.
As a result of making no money until the project is out, I also undertake part time freelance work to cover weekly living costs, though I am still burning through my savings at an alarming rate (Though this has been budgeted for).
So, would I recommend game development as a viable option for someone in your situation? No. I don't think a game project (for example) is a reliable enough source of income. However, freelance is a reasonable alternative, but this entirely depends on experience. Game-related freelance can be hard to come by and often times, you will likely find longer-term contracts which may not be suitable in every situation. On the plus side, web development can be very lucrative, especially if you tackle more sophisticated projects that have an element of e-commerce, or advanced back-ends.
Though, the best way to answer this question is to give it a go. For the time being, either start work on a project part-time, or do a little bit of freelance work on the side. This will give you a flavour of how easy/hard it is to find work, or if you want to meddle with a project, it might give you an idea of how well it shapes together or whether you hit any brick walls with it early on. Regardless of what you do, working on a project is never a bad thing, even if its just a hobby. In my opinion, the primary intent of making a game should always be because you want to make the game, not because of the financial incentive. Naturally, financial incentive can exist behind the project, because in an ideal world, it would be great to earn money doing something you enjoy, however it is certainly a risk to depend on it. For me, I only made the decision to go full-time once I knew it was possible to complete the project within a set timeframe (something that is very hard to judge near the start) and once I knew that I didn't need a full income during that period of time.
This is naturally a really daunting amount of time when quantified in that way. I don't believe in the indiepocalypse as such, I know statistically, there are far more games, and not a proportional increase in the number of consumers, however I believe this just means you have to be better in order to succeed. Perhaps i'm being naive, though I believe games themselves can be successful still, and it can be a viable path, but only if you approach it in the right way. The hard part now is being sustainable about it, as there is no guarantee of reward, and games can require a large upfront investment. For me, most of that investment was mitigated by time commitment (equivalent of 5 human years of work) plus some financial commitment.
"Or .. have i missed the boat?" I don't think the situation has changed all that much since 2010 with regards to what sort of commitment/personal investment it took to develop a project. In fact, its objectively easier than it was a few years ago given greater resources, stronger sales platforms and a much larger pool of consumers who play indie games. The difference is that there are more people doing it, but if you see the amount of trash that comes out, if you have a good game, you would hope it wouldn't impact your sales, the challenge is just getting people to see your game, as people aren't really buying the trash that much anyway, it's just it obscures your games visibility.
As a result of making no money until the project is out, I also undertake part time freelance work to cover weekly living costs, though I am still burning through my savings at an alarming rate (Though this has been budgeted for).
So, would I recommend game development as a viable option for someone in your situation? No. I don't think a game project (for example) is a reliable enough source of income. However, freelance is a reasonable alternative, but this entirely depends on experience. Game-related freelance can be hard to come by and often times, you will likely find longer-term contracts which may not be suitable in every situation. On the plus side, web development can be very lucrative, especially if you tackle more sophisticated projects that have an element of e-commerce, or advanced back-ends.
Though, the best way to answer this question is to give it a go. For the time being, either start work on a project part-time, or do a little bit of freelance work on the side. This will give you a flavour of how easy/hard it is to find work, or if you want to meddle with a project, it might give you an idea of how well it shapes together or whether you hit any brick walls with it early on. Regardless of what you do, working on a project is never a bad thing, even if its just a hobby. In my opinion, the primary intent of making a game should always be because you want to make the game, not because of the financial incentive. Naturally, financial incentive can exist behind the project, because in an ideal world, it would be great to earn money doing something you enjoy, however it is certainly a risk to depend on it. For me, I only made the decision to go full-time once I knew it was possible to complete the project within a set timeframe (something that is very hard to judge near the start) and once I knew that I didn't need a full income during that period of time.
R
roytheshort
Guest
Wire transfers do this anyway with a minute amount of the electricity costs. What even is this point?
Please borrow more and invest everything you own into crypto. I don't have to talk to you if you can't afford an internet connection.
andev
Member
I don't think anyone here is suggesting you do that. Write off everything you invest as "already lost".
RichHopefulComposer
Member
Wow, hardcore, dude. +1
F
Falconsoft-Industries
Guest
Provided you had the money (“which you do not”) being me I would get a exoskeleton and wire it to my brain and no longer be physically disabled.
J
jb skaggs
Guest
Probably the best idea yet.
andev
Member
You could get a mini one for just your fingers so you can still type
Dog Slobber
Member
Just bumping this topic to illustrate what can happen to those who think that bitcoin or other crypto-currencies are a good investment.
It was implied that the OP solve his financial problems by investing in crypto-currency January 9, when Bitcoin was trading at about $14,500 (US)
As of today it's $6,800. Had the OP invested in Bitcoin he would have lost over 53% of his money.
With Litecoin his losses would have been 55%.
With Ethereum his losses would have been 70%.
It was implied that the OP solve his financial problems by investing in crypto-currency January 9, when Bitcoin was trading at about $14,500 (US)
As of today it's $6,800. Had the OP invested in Bitcoin he would have lost over 53% of his money.
With Litecoin his losses would have been 55%.
With Ethereum his losses would have been 70%.
J
jb skaggs
Guest
I actually bought $20 worth just to see what happened. It is now worth $12.
As far my health goes- I have been able to work more, but it is very much a struggle.
As far my health goes- I have been able to work more, but it is very much a struggle.
Dog Slobber
Member
I'm glad that you're able to work more and that you only experimented with what you could afford to lose.I actually bought $20 worth just to see what happened. It is now worth $12.
As far my health goes- I have been able to work more, but it is very much a struggle.
Bearman_18
Fruit Stand Deadbeat
Good luck, man.
Coded Games
Member
If you have any unfinished games/projects that still have some value you could clean up the code, comment everything, and sell the source code on the GM marketplace. You can make a bit more doing that.
sitebender
Member
Not to derail the thread, but I had a lot of Bitcoin for years that I kinda just forgot I had since its not in front of me every day or every month when I check on bank accounts and credit cards. I cashed out 90% last October - December. It was tough finding buyers, you can't just cash out, you need to find some other person willing to take your pet rock.
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FROGANUS
Guest
sorry for your situation, jb.
about your space- a coffee shop and a completely unused top floor..
maybe consider downsizing?
what exactly was the issue with tenants/zoning?
have you considered hosting thru air bnb? (anyone have experience with this?)
best of luck.
about your space- a coffee shop and a completely unused top floor..
maybe consider downsizing?
what exactly was the issue with tenants/zoning?
have you considered hosting thru air bnb? (anyone have experience with this?)
best of luck.
J
jackypot
Guest
The Cryptomonedas are one of the technologies, which are taking more strength in the personal I think that in the 2 with great scope are bitcoin and ethereum.