Mehdi
Member
Where is this statement done? I haven't seen that.they have already stated that permanent licenses will continue existing.
Where is this statement done? I haven't seen that.they have already stated that permanent licenses will continue existing.
Where is this statement done? I haven't seen that.
This was also posted on the last page from Russell on Discord stating all 2.x licence holders will get all 2.x features unlocked once we move to GMS 3.x.Where is this statement done? I haven't seen that.
No you are mistaken. I did know the process and didnt speak based on others comments.I feel like this is a good example of people not understanding the process,
Sorry but this is not very offical! Am I wrong?(Source: russel on discord)
As I said I don't want to get into arguments and back and forths, I'm just commenting on what I see.No you are mistaken. I did know the process and didnt speak based on others comments.
the fact that I said: "I agree" is not me just getting a yet-unknown fact. But rather because I got to think there's no hope that Opera and YoYo change their plans and only two options remain: stop using Gm and switching to other engines.(which I hate) or to trust in YoYo and continue to hope for not-very-bad days.
It's direct from Russell, so until a large scale "official" announcement is made it's as official as it can get.Sorry but this is not very offical! Am I wrong?
Opera Games when?slowly but surely needing Opera this and that for Opera features in an Opera product*
Personally, they don't warm this would happen before, especially when the subscription model was announced : Some updated features in roadmap are locked to the permanent license user for a while, my permanent license would have more limitation to this features than indie subscriber, even if i dont need it ( Filters and Effects / Triggers ).Can someone explain to me why people are still outraged given the information we have at this point in time?
Sure, this has been handled badly and would never have been an issue had YYG just made a permanent licence equivalent to a subcription licence on the back end to allow access to the features with nothing needing to be done by the user - this would have been the ideal route they took but for some reason known only to them they didn't do that.
Instead, to allow access to the new features they have given permanent licence holders 12mths subscriptions to Indie for free for every licence that they own, so at minimum a permanent licence owner gets 12mths and maximum 48mths subscription and this can be claimed on the YYG website in a couple of minutes.
Doing this will give all permanent licence holders access to the new features because they essentially become a subscriber paying $0.00 per month for the length of the free subscription. At the point these free months expire you fall back to the regular permanent licence(s) you own and still have full use of - you lose nothing at all.
Russell has said on Discord that all permanent licence holders will get all 2.x features fully unlocked when 2.x in sunsetted, which means your permanent licence will do exactly what it says on the tin and give you access to all updates that were made within the lifetime of 2.x once GMS moves over to 3.x.
The only difference between the 2 licences as it stands is making a few clicks on the website to claim the free subscription months, the end result is the same in that you'll get access to the new features because you are classed as a subscriber for the length of your free subscription and so get the "subscriber" benefits everyone wants so badly without having to actually pay a subscription.
Is making a few clicks on the website really that much of an issue that people would rather not do that and instead get involved in a load of drama? You can get access to what you want right now if you want to - for free and you lose literally nothing.
The only practical issue I see is that if GMS doesn't move to 3.x by January 1st 2023 then people who only own a single licence would fall back to a version of 2.x that didn't have all the features unlocked because 2.x wouldn't have been sunsetted as per what Russell stated - but this is 15mths away and there a lot of time to clarify this.
It seems like people are up in arms about the semantics of being labelled "permanent" or "subscriber" to me, rather than them giving no way for permanent licence holders to get access to new features at all. It's not like they are offering no way for permanent users to get them, it seems more like permanent users don't want to claim the free subscription and prefer to complain that they are being deprived of something when the solution is right there in front of them.
I'm not asking about why we are in this situation, what started it all or how you feel violated - YYG have handled this terribly, no doubt.
But now - given the information we have, Russell's Discord message which is the next best thing to "official" we can get and the ability to claim your free subscriptions to get access to the new features in less time that it takes to write an angry message on here...
Why are people still posting messages about how outraged they are and what are the actual remaining issues that people have?
I'm not looking for an argument or clever/sarcastic responses, I'm actually puzzled people are still so outraged when they can get exactly what they want albeit via a different method of having to claim a free sub rather than using their permanent licence credentials.
Am I missing something?
At least quote me so I get a notification lol!Some of the comments in this thread surprise me. How are some users (apparently) confused about people being angry over being lied to?
..and they are, but they have to claim a free subscription to slightly change their licence type in the interim until 2.x is sunsetted, at which point all 2.x features will be unlocked for permanent licence holders (as per Russell).GMS2 permanent license holders were told they'd get all updates for the lifetime of the product.
You're quoting an older post before he spoke on Discord, which is why my post asked why people are still angry now, when we have new information from him and he said that all 2.x licences will get all features unlocked at 2.x sunset."Nothing much is changing here, you will continue to get support (for permanent users) and many of these features will make their way to free and permanent users." logically means "some features won't make their way to free and permanent users,"
This is what I'm asking and what I don't understand.It's pretty clear there's at least a GOOD CHANCE that some features of GMS2 are going to be sub-only, and that's bull****. I don't care about the price of the sub (it's cheap and fair!), and I don't care that paid users are getting free months. It's not what they were promised
Given the current known information, what are they not honoring?so they should be honoring their agreements with their 2.0 customers still.
I wasn't talking about just you, hahah! There are multiple people in this thread saying "just take what you get, why are you complaining?!", some in much ruder terms than you are!At least quote me so I get a notification lol!
Careful with this part; there is a difference, and that is that it is "soft forcing" people into the subscription when before they didn't need to have that type of tie to YoYo Games. That is, effectively, "Changing the relationship". I'm not personally upset about that, but some could be.What's the difference between the permanent licence giving the same access as a subscription from the start, and you being asked to use a free subscription that they have offeredto give you that access until 2.x is sunsetted?
Which is what this move is all about, obviously, even if people are covered until GMS3 rolls out, which isn't guaranteed.Careful with this part; there is a difference, and that is that it is "soft forcing" people into the subscription when before they didn't need to have that type of tie to YoYo Games. That is, effectively, "Changing the relationship". I'm not personally upset about that, but some could be.
I know what you are saying, but it's a completely free subscription that can be cancelled before any payment is needed and allows you to fall back to your existing permanent licence afterwards.Careful with this part; there is a difference, and that is that it is "soft forcing" people into the subscription when before they didn't need to have that type of tie to YoYo Games. That is, effectively, "Changing the relationship". I'm not personally upset about that, but some could be.
This is very often a tactic used by companies in the hope that people will forget they are subscribed by the time the actual payment point comes due. If 10% of your "free" subscribers forget, that can be equal to hundreds of thousands (or millions) of dollars depending on how large your userbase is. So the incentive is definitely there for companies. It can also put people into financial stress, especially if the timeframe between signing up and payment coming due is long enough. It's very easy for these types of things to slip someone's mind. I know it's happened to me one or two times before and it's been the difference between eating for a night or not...it's a completely free subscription that can be cancelled before any payment is needed
While I agree that "forgotten subs" can earn companies money they wouldn't have gotten otherwise (I've done it myself) - I'll have to I'll respectfully disagree with the rest of it.This is very often a tactic used by companies in the hope that people will forget they are subscribed by the time the actual payment point comes due. If 10% of your "free" subscribers forget, that can be equal to hundreds of thousands (or millions) of dollars depending on how large your userbase is. So the incentive is definitely there for companies. It can also put people into financial stress, especially if the timeframe between signing up and payment coming due is long enough. It's very easy for these types of things to slip someone's mind. I know it's happened to me one or two times before and it's been the difference between eating for a night or not...
But it doesn't matter how small of a change some users think it is (I'm on your side here, but some users liked the comfort of no chance of charge in the future), there is a change, and there is a risk of forgetting and being charged.I know what you are saying, but it's a completely free subscription that can be cancelled before any payment is needed and allows you to fall back to your existing permanent licence afterwards.
It may "change the relationship" on paper as on the system you would know be a temporary sub for the duration of the free months, but there are no payments or anything changing hands other than your details on file which they already have anyway if you've bought a permanent licence, so it doesn't really seem like much of an issue to me but maybe you can elaborate as to why it would be?
@RichHopefulComposer
No worries mate, you don't even need to reply at all if you don't want to - everyone is entitled to their opinion.
I'd just like to try and understand where people are coming from given everything they are complaining about is fully accessible if they want it just via a slightly different method to get the same result.
Ah you just reminded me - I did find it an inconvenience that they required a card to convert to a free subscription as I had to go hunting for my wallet to do it, although I had no worries over privacy/data collection as they already have my details on file from my licence/marketplace purchases and every time we use the IDE we send them information on our details, licences, system etc.But it doesn't matter how small of a change some users think it is (I'm on your side here, but some users liked the comfort of no chance of charge in the future), there is a change, and there is a risk of forgetting and being charged.
Now, if they let you sign up for the subscription to convert over, then remove your card while running the subscription (They may, I haven't checked)... Then yeah, it's more of a small inconvenience.
In my case it's fairly simple: While many of the individuals working at YoYo games may be very smart and/or good at their job, the company as a whole has not yet proven to me that they are able to produce software that professionals can reliably use. They have not yet demonstrated that they have people who want to produce large, substantial games in mind when designing their software. They long ago lost my trust that they will make good design decisions that further the ability to create commercial games reasonably. GM is a genuine pain to try to do anything large in. Literally any engine is better at this point. Therefore, I do not feel like giving said company more money until they prove otherwise. If I actually considered the software to be worth subscribing to, I would potentially consider a subscription when my current license expired (assumedly when they get to GMS3).but it's why I'm trying to understand the point of view of others who are so against it
I can tell you get more stressed and pissed off when people report bugs than complain about the subscription based on how well you took this thread while addressing the latter. That shows everyone might not be stressing you guys out as much as I thought and me policing a few users i admit was not my place and was a bit much. However it does sadden me because i can definitely tell you in specific are more stressed and concerned regarding fixing bugs, I hope things get better for you guys soon! I know what being stressed over maintenance feels like, especially when you get a lot of tickets about the same exact issues, so it only makes sense to prioritize those ones the most (for example i get a lot of tickets regarding people who just don't know how to use my execute shell extension, which does get old answering the same questions over and over for a concept i didn't even invent or program - shell execution i didn't invent, i only made it accessible to GM again, but they treat it like I know the answer to all their problems when they could just read up on how to do this stuff online as easily as i can).Thanks to everyone contributing to this thread. Some of you are clearly very unhappy and we take that seriously. We're reading every post.
We are not putting everything behind a subscription quite the opposite in fact - we are carrying on everyones permanent license and providing support for everything that is currently present and reserving some future (mostly unannounced features) for subscription users. Nothing much is changing here, you will continue to get support (for permanent users) and many of these features will make their way to free and permanent users. There is more to come for Filters and Effects so the feature is not complete yet but we are excited about it and wanted subscription users to be able to use it now before it has been fully finished (it is still very useful now), we will be doing more like that as we roll out new features that are useful but not complete.
Russell
This is going to be their point of contention and I won't take a side on that one because it doesn't bother me, but I can see why it would bother others.Based on your suggestion I just checked if I could remove my card now I'm on the free subscription and it doesn't let you, it says:
"Your default payment method can't be deleted because you have an active plan" so it looks like there needs to be a card on file, although you can add other payment methods and then remove the original one so that could easily be changed to one of those free top-up cards with £0 on it to prevent any charges.
Yep; This is true. Would be great if people took a bit of a pragmatic approach in their feedback.People are trying to find bad guy and point fingers
Demonizing Opera or YYG isn't constructive criticism either you know.
I wish I lived in your sheltered world. There's plenty of people who have to budget out every dollar they have for the month who *gasp* exist on the internet with a computer.but I don't believe for one minute that someone who can afford to purchase permanant licence(s), afford to own a computer specced well enough to run GMS2, afford to have an internet connection, electricity to run it all etc etc
I don't live in a sheltered world and you don't know me or my background, so I'm going to bite my tongue and suggest that we not get personal eh?I wish I lived in your sheltered world. There's plenty of people who have to budget out every dollar they have for the month who *gasp* exist on the internet with a computer.
Well, it definitely seemed like you knew other people's circumstances in the post I quoted of yours. In any case, I'm gonna bounce from this dumb thread. Everything that could be said has been said, defenses have been mounted, attacks have been slung. It's a dumpster fire that could have been put out from the very start.I don't live in a sheltered world and you don't know me or my background, so I'm going to bite my tongue and suggest that we not get personal eh?
We can agree to disagree, have different opinions and still be cordial.
No point in typing out a full reply then, but I'll add "potential poverty if you forget about it" to the list of reasons of why the free sub is bad, thanks for the suggestion.In any case, I'm gonna bounce from this dumb thread.
We agree on this, all the good work done since Opera took over undone with one single badly managed decision/announcement.It's a dumpster fire that could have been put out from the very start.
Quoted for emphasis. Sorry Rikman, it's definitely nothing personal, but financial wellness is a social issue that people need to be more aware of. The 'it's just another $7' is a akin to 'its just one drink' to an alcoholic; People need to become more aware of this.I wish I lived in your sheltered world. There's plenty of people who have to budget out every dollar they have for the month who *gasp* exist on the internet with a computer.
I have no idea what happened when they started it and even when they changed that, but we can for sure say, that when GMS2 started to offer subscriptions this year, which seems to be not only 2x cheaper, but it's also not limited to non-commercial under $50,000 yearly income and have no limits like this at all, they even created page to discredit GameMaker Studio (and this nonsense benchmark), so seems that from their point of view YYG have better offer if they need so cheap tricks to attract more peoplewhat happened to similar engine Construct when they started to apply subscription model?
$100 each month?! yikes I can't do that. Opera is making bank!I don't mind paying 100$ a month or whatever for future GMS releases, but at least keep the integrity intact for perpetual license holders. Things like time-exclusive features for subscribers are only going to cause the userbase to evaporate over time.
Umm I think you misunderstood that comment~$100 each month?! yikes I can't do that. Opera is making bank!
Maybe they did, but don't give Opera ideas! They know they have people that can bank roll here, but at this rate of growth they will price out the community until there's only 20 of us left! HahaUmm I think you misunderstood that comment~
haha I hope so!Umm I think you misunderstood that comment~
year*$100 each month?! yikes I can't do that. Opera is making bank!
In fact Many users are saying they would leave GM. Some of my friends told me, They are out as soon as their current project is finished.Maybe they did, but don't give Opera ideas! They know they have people that can bank roll here, but at this rate of growth they will price out the community until there's only 20 of us left! Haha
I would be very careful assuming to that degree... Sure, some of your friends may leave, but I think that is way too limited and biased of a sample set to extrapolate the demise of YoYo Games with. The current price point is great, and most seem to agree there. That is not where a majority of the complaints were/are coming from. If your friends were hoping to never pay again, they also weren't going to contribute to saving YoYo Games from the demise you predict...In fact Many users are saying they would leave GM. Some of my friends told me, They are out as soon as their current project is finished.
I guess this would be the future of GM. They would lose the very guys who were holding them upright. Then when the enough money is not earned any more, Opera will stop supporting Yoyo and a very old and lovely game engine with many users all over the world will see its sunset.
What a sad story. I hope never happens.
The thing that annoys them is not paying, Instead the very model of "Hey, pay the money to let that feature gets active again" is somehow not interesting to them. Guys at yoyo/Opera could quite possibly do as unity or other free engines do in terms of income. After all we cant ignore the fact that some powerful and yet completely free engines are there with many features that GM is lacking definitely.I would be very careful assuming to that degree... Sure, some of your friends may leave, but I think that is way too limited and biased of a sample set to extrapolate the demise of YoYo Games with. The current price point is great, and most seem to agree there. That is not where a majority of the complaints were/are coming from. If your friends were hoping to never pay again, they also weren't going to contribute to saving YoYo Games from the demise you predict...
The issue there is whether or not the community as a whole hits the threshold required to make that viable. They spent way too much time catering to the hobbyist, so I really don't think that would be feasible, unfortunately. If they could have a net positive by switching to that model, they would surely do it. Unity and Unreal have the foundation in place where the hobbyists are being subsidized by the heavy hitters. I, personally, don't think Game Maker has the same situation.The thing that annoys them is not paying, Instead the very model of "Hey, pay the money to let that feature gets active again" is somehow not interesting to them. Guys at yoyo/Opera could quite possibly do as unity or other free engines do in terms of income. After all we cant ignore the fact that some powerful and yet completely free engines are there with many features that GM is lacking definitely.