OFFICIAL New, More Affordable Pricing For Sharing and Publishing Games

ghandpivot

Member
Hey, late on the train and it seems daunting to read through all the posts, so sorry if the question has been asked before.

I have the mobile export for GMS2, but not the PC export. Eventually I'll probably want to be able to build .exe files as well. Does this mean that I'll be forced to subscribe to the whole package even though I've already got the $100 mobile export? Is there any price reduction or compensation surrounding this?

Cheers!

Edit:
Read a bit more, so I'll get the full indie kit for 12 months as a "compensation" then I guess? Does seem kind of fair even though I would have bought these if I actually had use for them. If I quickly buy the pc export on steam now, will I get this compensation x2?
 
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Zhanghua

Member
Hey, late on the train and it seems daunting to read through all the posts, so sorry if the question has been asked before.

I have the mobile export for GMS2, but not the PC export. Eventually I'll probably want to be able to build .exe files as well. Does this mean that I'll be forced to subscribe to the whole package even though I've already got the $100 mobile export? Is there any price reduction or compensation surrounding this?

Cheers!
AFAIK, You can export mobile always.
But if u what export others, u may pay the subscription whether you are subscribed.
Or convert to the subscription(also keep the permanent function to export mobile), you will have one year free export option before 2023.01.01.
 

Japster

Member
GMS enterprise £62.99 a month, what a rip off. Unless your a commercial programmer getting a return from your projects or have money to burn that price is not an option. Add another £40 pounds to £62.99 and you could get a mortgage on a house, now think about for a second and let it sink in.
Well, I don't want to give you apoplexy, but if you divided up the OLD annual Ultimate license fee per month, you'd have been looking at nearly DOUBLE that? - Now that, granted, was a lot in my book, but they've already nearly HALVED it, so I'm appreciative....

...and yep, no mortgage in this country, and most of the world, would be that price, so nothing to 'think about' - No disrespect, but honestly? - you'll simply serve to devalue your argument if you give unrealistic comparisons...
 

Sad

Member
Hey, late on the train and it seems daunting to read through all the posts, so sorry if the question has been asked before.

I have the mobile export for GMS2, but not the PC export. Eventually I'll probably want to be able to build .exe files as well. Does this mean that I'll be forced to subscribe to the whole package even though I've already got the $100 mobile export? Is there any price reduction or compensation surrounding this?

Cheers!

Edit:
Read a bit more, so I'll get the full indie kit for 12 months as a "compensation" then I guess? Does seem kind of fair even though I would have bought these if I actually had use for them. If I quickly buy the pc export on steam now, will I get this compensation x2?
Yes, if you do nothing, you get 12 months of Indie subscription that you can claim which will allow you to export on PC as well. When expired, you go back to your Mobile export only.

But If you choose to buy PC perpetual on Steam right now (if it's still there), then link it to your existing YoYo games account that has Mobile export, the bonus that you will get will be 12 months x2. The bonus months seems not added instantly so you gotta wait a day or two, you can contact support if you didn't see the bonus added.
 

Posh Indie

That Guy
If I read that all right, owning all of the perpetual licenses really provides no reasonable upgrade path as you would already have a "Perpetual Indie License" at this time (So the free 60 months expiring back to a perpetual of the same exports is pointless, haha). This DOES make sense, though, as it implicitly rewards those who purchased everything while also giving a very generous free window (For all of the applicable exports) to those who had not purchased everything.

I am usually the one complaining about the price points being deaf to competitive alternatives... but this one is definitely appealing overall.

Does anyone have information on the Enterprise subscription and if it comes with the full support for console releases?
 
Does anyone have information on the Enterprise subscription and if it comes with the full support for console releases?
The Enterprise subscription does come with console support - But, before you can access any of the console stuff, you need to be a registered developer with Nintendo, Sony, and/or Microsoft. It's difficult to find any information more detailed than that on the subject because the people who know had to sign NDAs that evidently prevent them from discussing the topic.
 

Posh Indie

That Guy
The Enterprise subscription does come with console support - But, before you can access any of the console stuff, you need to be a registered developer with Nintendo, Sony, and/or Microsoft. It's difficult to find any information more detailed than that on the subject because the people who know had to sign NDAs that evidently prevent them from discussing the topic.
Makes sense! I just wanted to be sure it included all of that still for when the time comes. If that is the case... the price point remains valid (To me, at least). I personally welcome the changes.
 
Oh no.... Oh no....
Welp there goes any hope I had of convincing my workplace to use GMS 2 for our 2d based games. My boss and myself were looking through the previous purchase options the other day and we were going to get the YYC permanent export. After this news it wont be happening sadly. Unbelievable timing. I was actually starting to consider getting GMS 2 after trying the newly expanded free version but with this pricing structure, ill stick with GM Studio 1.4 or move onto other engines.

Edit: Convinced them! we will use it :)



It feels like this sums up half the users here. 😆♥
 
D

Deleted User

Guest
you can save 60€ on new subscription if you go to steam shop and get GMS from there:
+ license will stay permanent for win\mac\linux after the subscription expires.

17 months indie subscription from yoyo store = 140€
permanent license from steam converted to 17 months indie = 80€


I bought 1 as a gift few minutes ago.


1629220746202.png
 

gnysek

Member
They updated FAQ about claiming "free" subscription and tier changes/cancelling.

So I think it works this way:
Perpetual can be converted to Indie - 12 months per each license, you can upgrade to Enterprise and free Indie months will pause until you get back to that tier, but cancelling Indie will also cancel all "free" months forever
Perpetual can be converted to Enterprise - 2 months per each license, you can switch to Indie at any time, and then get remaining free Enterprise months when switching back, but once you cancel any of those subscriptons, all "free" are lost forever (changing tier isn't cancelling)
After starting any of "free" months option, you can't convert them to another tier (but you can pay real money for another tier), so choose wisely (IMHO Indie is better choice). So there's no way to convert 24 months to 12 free Indie + 2 free Enterprise.
Perpetual licenses always override Free license features.
 
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I think the subscription model is a great move. Also, it is very fairly priced - or cheap even. 10 USD a month for ability to export to PC and mobile? Awesome. I can understand why you would prefer a steady flow of cash from subscriptions - I bought GMS2 in 2017 I think. That is four years ago...a long time not getting money from your customer.
 
I had an idea about pricing. What if there were different pricing models for different types of users?

Like Hobbyist/Indies could buy permanent licenses of non consoles exports as a one time purchase.
Enterprise and large teams could have access to all exports on maybe a royalty or revenue threshold style of pricing. Indies could still use it though.

Let me explain why I keep saying that a royalty or revenue threshold style of pricing would be good for both developers and YoYo Games.

First, it's a lower barrier to release on consoles for Indies, small teams or enterprise users. And they don't necessarily need to pay until they either release their game (similar to Unreal) or meet certain threshold (similar to Unity).

This could be better for YoYo Games, because they would possibly be getting a lot more revenue than the current flat out $799 a year for the Enterprise license. Because 5% (or something else) of a $100,000 game is better than $799 yearly, which is about $5,000. (although the revenue YoYo Games would make would fluctuate based on the games revenue).

But, similar to what @JeffJ suggested a while ago. What if there was a 1 year only cost of $799 for "dedicated console support" for the Enterprise license? That would give YoYo Games an initial $799 for each Enterprise user, while still being a lower barrier to entry. After the first year is over, the dedicated support ends. But, if the Enterprise user wanted, they could continue to subscribe year at $799 for dedicated support.

Also, the Enterprise users who stay subscribed could have a lower royalty percentage to pay from their revenue, while the Enterprise users not subscribed would have a slightly higher percentage?

I think this would also have a mutual benefit to both the developers and YoYo Games, because it would encourage more developers to want to use GameMaker for console releases, since it would be a lower barrier to entry and it would make YoYo Games want to strive to improve the GameMaker engine and help more indie developers to create better games that sell well. Kind of like a "we don't make money unless you do" sort of thing.

Also what if they were all permanent licenses, since developers could keep even older versions on GameMaker Studio. but the Enterprise subscribers would have the option to stay subscribed for other benefits? Like, Dedicated support, possible in depth tutorials, marketplace discounts, etc.
 
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Sad

Member
I think the subscription model is a great move. Also, it is very fairly priced - or cheap even. 10 USD a month for ability to export to PC and mobile? Awesome. I can understand why you would prefer a steady flow of cash from subscriptions - I bought GMS2 in 2017 I think. That is four years ago...a long time not getting money from your customer.
it's true if you are seeing it from farther back, It's a good move.
Back then: 30 days, then $100 barrier
Now: Unlimited days, then $10 barrier/month

But sadly many people seeing it from 1.5 weeks ago, so the only thing they see different is:
Back then: Unlimited days, $100
Now: Unlimited days, My $100 will now only last me 12 months *grumble grumble*
Here's the example of such people https://steamcommunity.com/app/585410/discussions/0/3037102210816842300/
 

Kevin K

Member
@Kevin K If it's about whether GMS will be able to survive for the next few years, I have no definite answer. But having two official sponsored game jams - with one giving monetary prize of $2,000 and the other of $20,000 - I am pretty confident that GM isn't going to collapse anytime soon, unless the staff makes some supermassive blunder.

Ever since the introduction of GM:S 2.3+ we have been getting mostly regular quarterly updates. The effect varied, with stability being one of the common complaints (though I haven't experienced the issues myself), but I'm still hopeful. Or at the very least, I'd like to wait and see for the next few months of my free Enterprise subscription whether GM:S will pick up the pace.

It's also worth looking back at how GM:S 1.x was handled - first GM:S 2 came out of beta, and only then 3 months later GM:S 1.x sunset was announced. So I'm pretty sure unless GM:S 3 is announced, we can still expect some updates to GM:S 2 (don't know if you have a permanent license or not) before it becomes retired.

Not sure whether waiting for a few months is good enough or too much for you.
I suppose a lot of that also depends on what kind of project you develop in the first place - is it primarily a desktop oriented project, or maybe you'll want to make a mobile version, or even a console one? I guess a mostly-desktop game could be completed using the current features of GM:S. Mobiles/consoles might be trickier, with the ever updating SDKs and APIs and whatnot and there might be potentially some bugs that won't be fixed (then again, I don't experience such bugs myself somehow).
Also, is there some non-engine specific work you could do before making your final decision (like, I dunno, artwork or dialogue or something)? Or maybe you could minimise the amount of GM-specific content? E.g. instead of making GM scripts for AI, you could store AI behaviour in custom-language files, and then if you had to port over to another engine, all you would need to transfer would be a parser while reusing the AI files?

So yeah, overall, if you can postpone your decision of whether to keep using GM:S or switch over - in particular by doing non-engine specific things in the meantime - I'd recommend waiting for a few months to see if things are improving or not at all. So far, after YYG was acquired by Opera, we generally received better and more frequent communication compared to the dark ages of Playtech; I hope it will keep improving.
Thanks for the suggestion! I think I've more or less been in this wait and see mode working on art and music and all the other aspects of game design once I had many of the base systems in place code wise. GMS 2.3 was a huge update and I haven't fully updated everything to make use of all the new GML features we have. But as I started to rethink the design process, I began to question whether GMS even makes sense anymore for the game I'm making. It's tough to make that call without having enough experience to decide which tool is best.

Either way, GMS will always be useful for me as a game design tool. It's just so easy to test ideas and prototype with.

Who says the userbase "continues to shrink"? Currently it's probably bigger than ever. I know of about 15 different Discord channels, this forum is constantly getting new members and most of the long term users are still here, and there is NO indication that the userbase is shrinking or has shrunk. Quite the opposite actually! Will we lose some people because of this decision? Undoubtedly. Will we gain more users as time goes on? Undoubtedly. It's swings and roundabouts, and all I can say is that in the 15 years or so I've been using GameMaker, it's userbase has never been greater and the games produced by them have never been better, and I have no reason to believe this will not continue. Especially now that they have the backing of a company (Opera) that actually appears to care about GameMaker, YoYo Games, and the community that we have here.
I hope this is true, but the fact that Playtech lost money when they acquired yoyogames in 2015 (16 mil to Opera's 10 mil if I'm not mistaken) does not sit well with me as someone who is looking to invest in a platform for many years to come. Now Playtech may have mismanaged things to a certain degree, but somehow I doubt that is the entire story for such a sizeable valuation writedown. I appreciate your optimism, even if I choose to work in a different engine for commercial development, I will always be grateful and wish the best for the GMS community. It is certainly one of a kind in the indie game dev world.

The question of whether GMS will remain commercially viable as a business in a hyper competitive environment for game engines/frameworks remains to be seen. I have no doubt people will continue to find GMS useful so long as it is being developed and updated, but I question whether Opera can turn a meaningful profit on their investment while still remaining competitive as a commercial engine. I sure hope so, but only time will tell. It would be great if yoyogames shared metrics on the userbase or something to give non-hobbyist users a better sense of the health of the company/service.

Appreciate your input!
 

Kevin K

Member
it's true if you are seeing it from farther back, It's a good move.
Back then: 30 days, then $100 barrier
Now: Unlimited days, then $10 barrier/month

But sadly many people seeing it from 1.5 weeks ago, so the only thing they see different is:
Back then: Unlimited days, $100
Now: Unlimited days, My $100 will now only last me 12 months *grumble grumble*
Here's the example of such people https://steamcommunity.com/app/585410/discussions/0/3037102210816842300/
There's always going to be a lot of negative reactions to a pricing change. The cost isn't crazy when you consider GMS in a vacuum, however no game dev is considering any engine in isolation when there are so many options available. The problem with the move to the sub model is that it now loses with respect to the affordability/value ratio for newer developers. Sure there is a "unlimited trial" version, but nearly (if not all) the competitors have a similar if not a better "free tier" option.

So what is the value added for using GMS when they no longer beat on price? DnD? Quick prototyping perhaps? Is that enough I wonder?

For anyone who has used it extensively and enjoys the workflow, the value proposition is more clear. But for newer devs, I'm not so sure.
 
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Also, I just want to give a personal reason why I won't be using GameMaker anymore since the subscription pricing.

For instance, a hobbyist/indie subscribers to the $99 a year Indie Tier, and has release several small desktop games and a couple years later, they decide they want to start doing 3D games in a different game engine. But since they used GameMaker to create their games, in order to make sure their games are still up to date, and can fix bugs, they need to stay subscribed to the Indie Tier only for the fact that they can't even export their already released games unless they stay subscribed and pay $99 a year. Even though they aren't really using GameMaker Studio 2, anymore, since they are now creating 3D games.

Same goes for console exports only, if a developer moves to a 3D game engine and is no longer actively using GameMaker, they still have to pay $799 every year just to keep access to export their already released games.

When if these exports were all permanent, the developers would be free to move on to another game engine without $99 a year or $799 a year to think about.

Of course it's good for YoYo Games to have a recurring revenue, but on the other hand, it's not good for developers to have to stay subscribed paying upfront yearly just to keep access to their released games.

This is were a royalty/threshold pricing model would help out with the costs associated with releasing games. It's not an upfront cost to the developer, and if they pass a threshold, they then pay from what they had already made and if people stop buying their games as much, they don't meet the threshold and are not required to keep paying for games that where released years ago.

I'm just saying these things because I really like GameMaker, but the new pricing is just not commercially viable for me to continue using. Where if I wasn't required to keep paying yearly for exports, I would gladly share revenue made from games.
 

Alice

Darts addict
Forum Staff
Moderator
Why would they have to keep paying upfront yearly? Isn't the point of the monthly subscription so that you can subscribe/unscubscribe for an occasional export?
It's not like you would update your game for 5 years every month, is it? Maybe a few months at the start, and then some once in a blue moon update for a few years; but definitely not something that would require continuously keep the yearly subscription. And by the time your game reaches the point of only a few occasional sales, it probably won't need to be updated as regularly anymore.

What you're saying sounds a lot like confusing the ability to export the game with the ability to keep the game published.
Do you actually have a released game that you need to continually update every month with bugfixes, despite no new features being added?
 
Why would they have to keep paying upfront yearly? Isn't the point of the monthly subscription so that you can subscribe/unscubscribe for an occasional export? o_O'
It's not like you would update your game for 5 years every month, is it? Maybe a few months at the start, and then some once in a blue moon update for a few years; but definitely not something that would require continuously keep the yearly subscription. And by the time your game reaches the point of only a few occasional sales, it probably won't need to be updated as regularly anymore.

What you're saying sounds a lot like confusing the ability to export the game with the ability to keep the game published.
Do you actually have a released game that you need to continually update every month with bugfixes, despite no new features being added? o_O'
No, I'm not confusing exporting and publishing. I'm also looking at things in the long run. If I was subscribing, and needed to release an update or patch (and wasn't currently subscribed), that cost would really add up, and be like an $80 update or patch every month I needed to update, since I like releasing small updates, which could very well be monthly. But having permanent export access, I could just export whenever I need and for however long I needed..

I actually would keep a constant update check on every game I release.

I know that YoYo Games needs to make money as well. but the subscription model is can just really add up in cost. I just really hope YoYo Games reads through what people are saying and considers a new pricing model. Because currently, it's just something that I can't do.
 

basementApe

Member
Also, I just want to give a personal reason why I won't be using GameMaker anymore since the subscription pricing.

For instance, a hobbyist/indie subscribers to the $99 a year Indie Tier, and has release several small desktop games and a couple years later, they decide they want to start doing 3D games in a different game engine. But since they used GameMaker to create their games, in order to make sure their games are still up to date, and can fix bugs, they need to stay subscribed to the Indie Tier only for the fact that they can't even export their already released games unless they stay subscribed and pay $99 a year. Even though they aren't really using GameMaker Studio 2, anymore, since they are now creating 3D games.

Same goes for console exports only, if a developer moves to a 3D game engine and is no longer actively using GameMaker, they still have to pay $799 every year just to keep access to export their already released games.
I can see that being a consideration for new users (the main reason I don't like this move), but I mean, for everyone who already has a permanent license it doesn't make a difference does it? Console deployment was subscription-only when I bought Gamemaker back in 2017 and I figured hey, if I ever get to where console releases are even on the table I'll be vested enough to deal with it when that time comes. So in that regard, things are actually more favorable for me now as the console tier pricing just got sliced in half.

Assuming you have a permanent license I don't understand how this all affects Gamemaker's viability for you personally in any way. Unless it's a matter of principle or something.
 

Nocturne

Friendly Tyrant
Forum Staff
Admin
I hope this is true, but the fact that Playtech lost money when they acquired yoyogames in 2015 (16 mil to Opera's 10 mil if I'm not mistaken) does not sit well with me as someone who is looking to invest in a platform for many years to come. Now Playtech may have mismanaged things to a certain degree, but somehow I doubt that is the entire story for such a sizeable valuation writedown.
As someone that worked at YYG during the PlayTech era, I can say that the sale of YYG was part of a larger move by the company to divest itself of an entire division comprising of about a half dozen companies. The division as a whole was not making PlayTech money, but that doesn't mean that YYG wasn't. It only means that PlayTech (like any big company) wanted to "shed weight" as quickly as possible and was prepared to take a one-time short-term loss over long-term constant losses. PlayTech is a MASSIVE company and one that generates a multi-multi-million dollar income, so losing a few million on a sale is nothing to them and shouldn't imply that they had no faith in YYG or GameMaker or that the company wasn't profitable. It's "big business" and it rarely comes down to individual companies or products. ;)
 
I can see that being a consideration for new users (the main reason I don't like this move), but I mean, for everyone who already has a permanent license it doesn't make a difference does it? Console deployment was subscription-only when I bought Gamemaker back in 2017 and I figured hey, if I ever get to where console releases are even on the table I'll be vested enough to deal with it when that time comes. So in that regard, things are actually more favorable for me now as the console tier pricing just got sliced in half.

Assuming you have a permanent license I don't understand how this all affects Gamemaker's viability for you personally in any way. Unless it's a matter of principle or something.
No, it's not really a matter of principle. I had these same views about the Ultimate License, and while the Enterprise License is cheaper, it's still a subscription and now the whole GameMaker Studio 2 game engine is subscription.

I have the Desktop and Mobile permanent licenses, but when a new version comes, I would probably have to subscribe to get access to it. That's also why I've just made the decision to stop using GameMaker if newer versions would be subscription. It's just like some people are saying that when there are other game engines that can do the same as GameMaker without subscriptions, people may choose them. That is what I'm doing. Going to learn one of the other 2D capable game engines that don't necessarily have subscriptions as an upfront cost.
 
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gnysek

Member
It's not like you would update your game for 5 years every month, is it?
If you check back to Kyle posts in topic about YY acquisition by Opera, generally there's an assumption, that everyone are doing it not for 5 years, but infinitely long...

Sorry that I will be offensive now, but @KyleRansford , do you have at least one commercial game, or you're still just coming up with zero experience about post-release game support, and blaming YYG that this support is so expensive, that there's no money in whole world to compensate this, while you even don't know if you ever arrive at that point? Cause you may not arrive, as I see that you want to learn another engine, so your game will be postponed for many months for sure... and in that time engine of your choose may also offer some subscription model, you'll never know.
You're stubbornly assuming, that your game will need support for X years after release and you need patch/update every month (or maybe even every day?), and at same time, that there won't be enough income from it to earn for licenses/subscription. I don't get your point - if you want to earn money on games (that's why you've established Cenokga Ltd. back in 2017, right?), then you're either updating it only while there's enough income/players/interest of game or abandon it if it's a failure. If money doesn't interest you, and you just want to develop/polish it just because it's your pinnacle and opus magnum - then face the fact, that you need to cover it from you pockets, but you should assume from beginning, that prices for any software/partner program may increase, and it will be a bottomless well. I'm not saying there's something wrong in supporting products that doesn't give income if they are deep in our heart (I'm doing it myself, and spending 200-500$ yearly at least on it), but that's my decision, and I'm facing it even when prices goes up (or I'm finally dropping some projects with broken heart).

If I would get $1 every time you says "I will stop using GameMaker" I would already have enough money for 1 year of Enterprise subscription...

There's a proverb in Poland "Cow which roars most, gives least milk". It fits ideally here.

Again, sorry that I was so offensive, but you need some cold shower IMHO.
 

Ubu

Member
The question of whether GMS will remain commercially viable as a business in a hyper competitive environment for game engines/frameworks remains to be seen.
And to add to that:
Since YYG have now given away free subscriptions for the next 1-4 years to every GMS2.x owner with perpetual license, there will be next to no income from this group the coming years. (Might not be a huge concern to YYG, since this group wouldn't have generated much income before the release of 3.0 anyway).
And since new users now have a free option and will have all the time they need to test the software before deciding whether or not they will subscribe, there will most likely be very little income from this group the first few years as well. (Potential newcomers will also decrease since a segment of this group will be opposed to a subscription model and shy away).
It has also been suggested, by both users and moderators, to just subscribe for 1 month in order to export your game and then cancel the subscription, which isn't exactly a sustainable source of income. (I can't imagine this is what YYG wants).
With all this in mind, I can't see how YYG will make any substantial revenue the next 3-4 years. So for the coming years there is no way of telling if people will be willing to sign up for a subscription and if this change will be a success or a failure for YYG.

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to sit around and wait for that.

And how can YYG compensate for this? Push a 3.0 release as fast as possible to "force" customers onto subscription? Increase the price? Remove monthly subscriptions? Or will they just wait and see what will happen? I guess only time will tell...
 

GGJuanPabon

Member
Except GMS2 isn't just some "educational" game engine. There's a LOT that can be done with it, and as the person you quoted said major titles like Undertale, Hotline Miami, and Hyper Light Drifter were shipped with it, and they are not all that simple games. Heck when it comes to 2D only I'd argue that it's just as powerful as Unity even, and is leagues ahead of Unreal. Now, GameMaker does have tools like Drag n Drop that are more for beginners, but it's clearly there to ease new users in, and isn't the main focus of the engine as a whole.

That line of thinking makes 0 sense too, like what dictates that educational game engines cost money but others shouldn't? That's not really the argument here anyways, people want free exports not because they wanna use the engine entirely for free but because not being be able to export your game in the free version makes it far less useful, which is important because it's that free version that will get people into GameMaker in the first place. Personally, I would've preferred something like in the old Creator license where you could export but would have a splash screen, but I can see why Yoyo hasn't opted in to do that.

Either way, I'm not sure why you're responding to criticism towards this decision in such a hostile manner. It's not that people just want free stuff, it's just that, you know... we use this engine, we want things to be better, and so we are offering our feedback. Telling people to use other engines just because they have criticisms is just silly and does not help anyone.
Exactly, I like this engine for 2d, and I feel that it has a lot of potentials, but to evolve the CRAP engine that exists at the moment, you have to pay some engineers, many engineers, and the old yoyogames had no money to pay it so we went to Unity which if it had. But the current yoyogames do things well, they look for the money to finance and the one who must go is not the one who is willing to pay for a good motor, the one who must go is the one who wants everything for free.
 
If you check back to Kyle posts in topic about YY acquisition by Opera, generally there's an assumption, that everyone are doing it not for 5 years, but infinitely long...

Sorry that I will be offensive now, but @KyleRansford , do you have at least one commercial game, or you're still just coming up with zero experience about post-release game support, and blaming YYG that this support is so expensive, that there's no money in whole world to compensate this, while you even don't know if you ever arrive at that point?
For one thing, I am not "blaming" YoYo Games for anything. And by saying I won't use GameMaker anymore is not a threat or a "change your price or I won't use it anymore". I haven't said it that often either. And like I said, it's not a threat or a boycott. It's a personal decision that I have arrived at. I also do have post release game support experience and have one game released. My other games are very early in development and is not that big of deal to restart. As I already have plans on how to restart them in a quick efficient way. I'm not just running my mouth off without even considering all of my personal options.

In the end GameMaker is their game engine and people can say all they want about what "they want to see" changed. I am just trying to have a discussion about how pricing could be beneficial to both Developers and YoYo Games. And the solution I keep coming back to is that I "personally" should just stop using GameMaker if I myself don't like the pricing. It seems like there's really not a civil discussion going on about how to see a level ground. I see that I should stop posting my personal opinion of the price change.

I will say, that at first glance I thought this was a better idea. But, subscriptions and not "owning" software is just what I can't do. It's not that I don't think I could afford it per se, but I don't like being "dependent" on subscriptions to be able to keep using a software. Currently, the only subscription I'm paying for is Microsoft 365. But I'm considering buying their one time software package. As I don't need to keep on with the monthly cost.

I feel that most of the shock from the new pricing is mostly a loyalty issue that people are feeling. I myself have been posting a little too much about. People who bought GameMaker Studio 2 as a one time cost, are now feeling in order to upgrade they must subscribe when a new version is released. According to the long list of posts from actual users of GameMaker, I'm not the only one who feels this way. But everyone has their own personal reasoning why they don't like the new pricing. So this whole thing is not just me posting about it.

If I actually thought the subscriptions where a good deal in my personal use case, I would be one of the first to subscribe and use all of the exports I possibly could. As the Enterprise license was reduced in price and is actually a better deal. I felt something like this might happen. Only using one game engine and "putting all my games in one basket".
 
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gnysek

Member
People who bought GameMaker Studio 2 as a one time cost, are now feeling in order to upgrade they must subscribe when a new version is released.
No at all, as for every license you already have, you're getting 12 months of subscription (plus 5 months until end of year), without losing any of your licenses - so in some cases that's up to 53 months of subscription (4,5 year), in which you don't need to pay anything. It will work with "new version" too. If giving subscriptions worth $450 for $0 isn't a loyalty to current customers, then I don't know what it can be.

Quick time travel back to 2017, when GMS 2.0 came out:

1629405469706.png

Total cost of licenses that we can now use in Indie tier, was... $1050. That's more than 10 years of Indie subscription! No one said, that if GameMaker Studio 3.0 would be released, it would have same license prices as GMS2.0 now have, and even if, equivalent of Indie tier in perpetual licenses would cost 500$, which is equal to 5 years of subscription. If we assume max. 5-year cycle* for major GMS versions in old model, the subscription for any major version isn't more expensive if one want all exporters.
Of course those who need Desktop only version might say "it was $100 before for Y years, now it's Y times more" - but as "Free" tier got now limits removed, one can make game in it for $0, and pay $10 to create executable. In my opinion, that's cheaper. For years, we get used to "buy all I can, maybe one day it will be needed", and with that thinking indeed this change feels to be worse than previous. But if we make examination of conscience - counting how many times we exported finished games (not prototypes which later were discontinued), while usually only first prototypes and late beta needs to be tested on platform different than desktop - new model is more flexible if used properly. We just need to stop thinking "I need something just in case, before I really do".

*GM 7.0 was released in 2007
*GM 8.0 was released in 2009
*GMS 1.0 was released in 2012
*GMS 2.0 was released in 2017
So no more than 5 years for major versions (but seems that GMS 2.x will exceed that)
 
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No at all, as for every license you already have, you're getting 12 months of subscription (plus 5 months until end of year), without losing any of your licenses - so in some cases that's up to 53 months of subscription (4,5 year), in which you don't need to pay anything. It will work with "new version" too. If giving subscriptions worth $450 for $0 isn't a loyalty to current customers, then I don't know what it can be.
That's really not accurate. Because when people's free period runs out they will have to subscribe to get access again. But I'm through arguing about the cost. Everyone has their opinion and everyone is free to subscribe or move to a different game engine. And no one can convince me that subscriptions are a better option when I myself know that they aren't a better option for me personally.

My whole discussion was about how GameMaker can still remain competitive with other like game engines who have much better pricing.
 
Developing games is not entertainment for me. I don't make a living on entertainment. I'm not going to subscribe to a game engine just for entertainment.
 
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Deleted member 16767

Guest
Oh and now you find out the reality here that 99% of indie game devs aren't gold diggers.
 
Maybe open a restaurant then? I thought that games are for entertainment, and who makes games, is entertaining others. It's bad when work is not enjoyable at all...
You are now twisting what I said.

What I mean is that my idea of developing games is to earn enough income to live on as an actual job and not just for entertainment as a hobbyist. Of course people can enjoy their job and creating games is a fun enjoyable experience.

This discussion is now getting off topic.
 

Chaser

Member
I am hobbyist. I had to save for quite sometime to get the desktop version of gms 2, even then I had to use some birthday money to help me reach the $99. Was never really interested in iOS or Android. I was and still am interested in the HTML5 export. The cost was $149, again I have to save all my pennies and relie on patreon support and other revenues to get it which will take some time. Now though, the susription works in my favour, because now I only need $8 to get the html export, AND for the same amount I get the android and iOS exports, not that I’m interested in them right now, but it’s certainly an option that I can now think about and explore potential game ideas or even a consider those as another platform for my games, which could earn me more money then just rely on desktop executions alone.i support the subscription price plan, I can develop all day long and when I’m ready, I insert my $8 coin.i no longer need to wait weeks, months, years to save up the funds needed to have 1 particular export. It’s happy days for me! :)
 
I'm keeping neutral from all this shenanigans. :) You guys.

..but I will throw out how this is potentially a positive outcome from this change. It's much, much better for freelances. And it's much better for people looking for a freelancer; You can factor in a 1 or 2 month indie subscription in your costs when you're hiring a freelancer to do an update/small project for you, but it's difficult to justify a lump sum export purchase for every job you're trying to get done.
 
There is NO way that you'd get a 100 quid mortgage anywhere in the UK (and pretty much the whole of Europe):

View attachment 42225
In Greater Manchester there are houses under 100 thousand with mortgages close to rents some as low as 100 pounds, so your list is an average which is usually inflated by the million pound houses. A bit like when they say the average wage in Britain is 2 thousand pound a week when most people come nowhere near that figure. I was just making the point 62 pounds is a stupendous amount of money for an hobbyist programmer to pay. 99% of GMS users don't make a penny.

Well, I don't want to give you apoplexy, but if you divided up the OLD annual Ultimate license fee per month, you'd have been looking at nearly DOUBLE that? - Now that, granted, was a lot in my book, but they've already nearly HALVED it, so I'm appreciative....

...and yep, no mortgage in this country, and most of the world, would be that price, so nothing to 'think about' - No disrespect, but honestly? - you'll simply serve to devalue your argument if you give unrealistic comparisons...
All I will say is your all mugs if you start paying subscriptions. I would suggest either using the free version until you produce something you think might make you some money else move on to another engine that does not charge the rip off mortgage like subscription.
 

Posh Indie

That Guy
All I will say is your all mugs if you start paying subscriptions. I would suggest either using the free version until you produce something you think might make you some money else move on to another engine that does not charge the rip off mortgage like subscription.
Me every time I see "mortgage" referenced as a comparison to the cost of the GMS Subscription: "Where I am from, even if you meant the Enterprise price, I wish mortgages only cost that much".
 

Nocturne

Friendly Tyrant
Forum Staff
Admin
I was just making the point 62 pounds is a stupendous amount of money for an hobbyist programmer to pay. 99% of GMS users don't make a penny.
The licence you are talking about is called "Enterprise" for a reason. It's NOT a hobbyist licence. The "hobbyist" (Indie) licence is €8 a month which is cheaper than a movie in the cinema or a couple of fancy Starbucks coffees, neither of which will give you hundreds of hours of enjoyment nor the potential to make money. If you want the enterprise licence it's because you want to publish to console, in which case you've already forked out various thousands of pounds to get dev kits and licences and will have far more overheads than this. You are complaining about something being too expensive for hobbyists when it was never MEANT for hobbyists...
 
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Nocturne

Friendly Tyrant
Forum Staff
Admin
"Cheaper than these two things that are heaps over-priced for what they are"
That's exactly my point. If people are happy to fork out €9 for a couple of chai lattes or €11 for a movie, then I fail to see the issue with €8 for GameMaker, given the value for money it offers in terms of hours of enjoyment and potential to recover (and much much more) the initial cost.
 

gnysek

Member
when it was never MEANT for hobbyists...
That's the issue I've mentioned - we used to buy things before we need them just to have them "in case of" (like games which we never gonna play, or books we never goona read, etc.) - and that's wrong way of thinking. Making a game shouldn't start from paying money in advance for things we're not gonna use for months, it should start from good prototype, design document, list of features, iteration plan. We shouldn't care about some prices in advance, as good projects will find their financing at some point, and if not, we're not forced to release on all platforms on same day (take example from Loop Hero - was it released on consoles initially? no, Switch version will be released at least half year after PC, so they also didn't bought Enterprise in advance).
For example, I believe that my game will be released on consoles sooner than later. But I didn't yet contacted any console manufacturer about dev account, as why I would do it when my game is 40-50% done - I will yet change so many things in it, that it's not worth to spent money on testing on consoles, I will get back to it when game is 95-100% done.
 

Roldy

Member
I was just making the point 62 pounds is a stupendous amount of money for an hobbyist
I know we all have different relationships with money but this is an absurd statement. Look at the industry we are talking about; an industry all about spending money on a hobby, gaming.

In general $10/month would be a pittance compared to how much gamers spend on games each month, how much they spend on a hobby.

Now this hobby of yours might not be worth $100/year to you. But it isn't a stupendous amount of money. If that is a large sum of money for someone, then they simply should not be spending money on hobbies in the first place and should focus on gaining some sort of financial stability. Unfortunately for those people GMS is free and may continue to distract them from their real life problems of not having $100/yr disposable income.
 
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Deleted User

Guest
That's really not accurate. Because when people's free period runs out they will have to subscribe to get access again.
Wait, what??
I tought someone said here that permanent licenses change back to permanent after the free months expire?? Thats the whole reason i converted my licenses 😅
 

Alice

Darts addict
Forum Staff
Moderator
I tought someone said here that permanent licenses change back to permanent after the free months expire?? Thats the whole reason i converted my licenses 😅
Yeah, that's correct. Vide FAQ:
Once you have completed an upgrade, your perpetual licences can still be used in the same way they have been previously however they cannot be used again to upgrade to another subscription.
 

gnysek

Member
I think that was about "hypothetical GMS 3.0", as then pernament licenses (probably) won't work. Probably, as 3.0 isn't announced and might never be, as with subscriptions it have no sense to update numbers (except for marketing purposes).
 
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Deleted User

Guest
with subscriptions it have no sense to update numbers (except for marketing purposes).
true. maybe if there is some huge new feature and a big change to gui, then it could be called gms3 🤔
but gms2 needs a lot of work so that wont happen any time soon.


I wonder if yoyo\opera has got enough feedback about the changes now, would be nice to hear something from them about the future of gms brand and plans they might have for it 😁
 
An optional method of payment that I thought would be interesting, is being able to buy a certain amount of times you can export.

Say you pay $5, you will get 20 exports and when you run out, you can't export again until you pay again.

This way, people complaining about subscription and not being able to do things on their own time is eliminated.

Just a thought.
You can buy a 24 hour license for $1, and I think that was kind of intended for those ultra-low-budget people

So they can just plan ahead and buy 24-hour licenses on the days they plan to put out builds instead of $10 for a whole month
 

TsukaYuriko

☄️
Forum Staff
Moderator
You can buy a 24 hour license for $1, and I think that was kind of intended for those ultra-low-budget people

So they can just plan ahead and buy 24-hour licenses on the days they plan to put out builds instead of $10 for a whole month
Yeah, those "ultra-low budget people" like the employees at YoYo Games who used those 1-day licenses to test the subscription feature, eh? 🤪

Those were for testing only and should be removed by now.
 

gnysek

Member
I wonder if yoyo\opera has got enough feedback about the changes now, would be nice to hear something from them about the future of gms brand and plans they might have for it 😁
Let me help them:
- sprites: as flash is dead, instead of SWF support we should get SVG import instead (even if that still means vertex models); mesh morhping (among with Spine support for it); sprite attach points
- tilesets: 47 tiles generator of big tilesets from 9-tiles/5-tiles images
- paths: bezier splines
- new resource: polygon shapes definition for room editor to detect if we're inside/outside of it on runtime (for AI, defining areas, collisions maybe)
- new resource: particles + editor
- fonts: singed distances fonts, so we can scale them up with nearly no pixels visible on edges
- rooms: ability to add text on layers; universal layer (so every type of resource can be placed there - that's possible at runtime already); ability to put "markers" on room, to mark/name places which x/y we want to access later at runtime so something might happen on them (teleports, npc waypoints, ai etc.); polygonal areas mentioned earlier
- new resource: data sources, for csv, json, text files, which can be accessed at runntime, but aren't exported from executable like included files, and are embed inside game (could be used for languages, levels generations, dictionaries, configurations)
- gml: data structures as references, so we don't need to care anymore about memory leaks with ds_xxx as GC will flush them
- support for game translations
- enchancements for A* motion planning (mp_grid)

Now they have my feedback, and we can talk about future plans 👺👺👺👺
 
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